Yeah, well, that's the stampeding herds for you.

As for the whole supernatural thing, just... ugh. I'm a slasher, yeah, and people don't agree with that, but omg, the kid sex and incest thing you're discussing here is ...yeah, no.

So in short, and with a little more coherency, I agree with you.

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It's hebephilia not pedaphelia. A 15~17 Tim Drake is post-pubescent, not pre-pubescent.

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Actually, we're talking about Jason Todd, who at the time is very small.

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"Violated by Demon Tongue.com"!? Ah yes, the old rule, "There Is Porn Of It".
As for people not being able to take a joke... their name is legion. And some of them might be writing pedo-slash.
Personally I've suffered from this type of thing myself. I remember I was on this forum where this guy kept on accusing people of calling him a nazi when no-one had. People would say things like "You're being pretty obnoxious here" and he would go "You're calling me a nazi because I'm german!" Out of no-where he'd say this. Also, if anyone made a remark about Nazis - for instance someone mentioning Webern being a nazi, which is in fact true - he'd say things like "You're calling all germans nazis!"
I never really interacted with him, but after he caused several fun threads to crash and burn, I was getting pissed off. So I put a poll on saying "Is [his screen-name] a Nazi?" where all the answers were variations of yes.
No-one got it. Everyone thought I was genuinely calling him a nazi, rather than satirizing his obsession with imagined implications of nazidom on his part. I didn't get banned, but everyone was nasty to me afterwords, so I just left.

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You are not the first person to notice that the community so self-righteously deticated to coercing people into not writing
stories degrading to women is composed in large part of writers
writing stories degrading to men. It takes a special kind of
zealous solipsism to rant about the evils of mysoginy in comics
with one hand while writing a self-labelled "rentboy" fic with
the other. Those women are the reason that, while I whole-heartedly
support the rights of women and believe in their possession of
equal faculties, I will /never/ allow myself to be called a
feminist.

I'm not saying writing "rentboy"/male rape/mpreg/whatever other
form of eroticized humiliation of men so many fangirls enjoy
is wrong. I'm just saying they should look at what they do, and
start allowing the same liberties and benefits of the doubt to
male comic writers. But (and I say thist as a leftist myself)
liberals haqve never been all that great at universalizing our
maxims. They always work really well when applied to minorities,
and less well when issued over society as a whole.

What really gets me is liviapenn's own description of girl-wonder's
goals: "people who are trying to improve the portrayal of women in
comics" -- obviously, they aren't the ones writing the comics, but
they still want control over the content. Feminist entitlement. I
wonder how they'd react to a bunch of fanboys starting an organization
with the mission "to improve the protrayal of men in fan fiction" --
I bet it would get a lot of hearty "fuck off"s, along with the
accusation of male privledge so commonly used by that crowd.

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I think it's very telling that you post anon. What the FUCK is feminist entitlement? Is that like black entitlement or native entitlement or jewish entitlement?? You are an ignorant moron.

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i stopped reading at "deticated". two things that will boost your credibility: accountability (ie anonymous comments are so last year) and spell check.

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When fanfiction becomes a legitimate medium from which people are making money, then your fanboy organization will have a leg to stand on. As it is right now, sorry, but no dice.

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When I saw that comment, I pretty much knew that you were joking. But, I've been reading your posts for a while and know that you are pro-feminism and given to incredibly tasteless jokes, often at Judd Winick's expense. Reading it as a random post may have come across as sarcasm at girl-wonder's expense, in which case I would have brought the hate.

One of the major drawbacks of the internet, when you write something as a joke it may come across as an attack to someone else, since they don't have the context and can't hear the tone. This is something that you already know, and I don't begrudge you a good rant, because I did think you meant it as an obvious joke, I'm just yammering back.

The second part goes back to that post I recently did on my porny fic versus my feminist sensibilities, and how I can write some really out-there porn while yelling about female characters in comics being treated as porn-dummies. Bottom line, I think it's a difference in genres. Porn fanfic is sharing sexual fantasies, and I hesitate to condemn a person's sexual fantasies, since sane, moral people know and respect the difference between a fantasy in a fictional world and reality.

I don't see a conflict between defending girl-wonder and writing twisted fanfiction because I see it as people wanting heroes to be sex objects in their fantasies but wanting them to heroes in superhero comics. Two different things - Mary shares them both online.

My two cents. Of course, I write messed up stuff, too, so they may be two self-serving cents.

-mildredmilton

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So if men write superhero comics with the specific
intent of stroking the male ego with simplistic
fantasies of power and sex, that isn't porn? Because
that's the root of like 70% of canon Batman stories.

Likewise, TheTe may write erotica, but there's too
much character study to call it straight porn.

Frank Miller is ruthlessly attacked by the girl-
wonder crowd, yet I can't imagine a better word to
describe his writing than "porn". Violence porn,
art porn, cheesecake porn...

I agree with you that sex fantasies should be
beyond moral reproof. I just think you need to
re-examine your concept of what might be a sex
fantasy, or very similar in a moral concept to
one, and reserve the hatred for fiction which
expreses genuine advocacy for sexism as an ideology
in real life.

Why do you have a right to claim moral outrage
over Stephanie Brown's death if I don't have
the same right over Ted Kord's? What I really
see with girl-wonder.org is a bunch of fans
trying to justify typical fannish anger over
cheap writing and gimmick death with feminism,
and coming up with a position that veers really
close to attempted censorship as a result.

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Here's the thing and why, despite having found myself in trouble with a few people (cuz we all know that Jenny-O hates sluts and thinks sexually active women with lots of partners who get her off are to be morally shamed) on this same list, I think you're kinda missing the point.

Livia's right, in that there's a long-time ugly stereotype that what us scary feminists/feminazis/women-fans want in our characters are "ball-busters" (well, I do, but I have a marked preference for ambiguous-to-villain characters in general), and even knowing it's a joke, it's kind of like making the really super-lame joke that everyone's heard before, like if a girl's name was Candy and you said, "So I bet you're sweet!" and Candy had heard that joke approximately 85,000,000 times before from people who had no real malice and just thought it was cute. At that point, Candy is going to cut a bitch, and there's not the whole problem that girl-wonder.org takes a lot of shit for daring to say hey, maybe Steph should be recognized as a Robin, too.

Also, the moral superiority whine is kind of a tu quoque. Sure, Mary writes some daring boyslash and some of the girl wonder crew has pinged my "gee, who writes female characters and who doesn't? And who is giving ME the female character lecture?", and we all regularly break every law of decency here in the fannish internets. I even wrote necrophilia one time myself. But Mary could be writing necro incest while smoking crack and still be right that female characters get the shaft, because Mary's moral leanings aren't at stake here. What's at stake is that I don't think you were out to be mean or malicious, but poking fun at girl-wonder.org should be a LEETLE more creative than, "heh. feminists. humorless and strident."

So take the lick like a man, son. If all the girls are telling you, "feminist jokes are tired, and THAT feminist joke is the tiredest," you may be entirely right that those girls have their own problems, but the joke was kinda weak and you got a righteous ding for doing the lamest feminist joke in the book. Don't compound it.

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That's how I feel. It wasn't funny. I know it was a joke, but IT WASN'T FUNNY because there have ben TOO MANY OTHER JOKES. If you are really getting this riled up over one little joke, that's really kind of sad. Yeah, you lost some friends off your list. But you have just made this WAY too personal. And you automatically assumed that the best ay to handle this was to defame a site that means more to me than a lot of other sites.

ALL OVER A JOKE.

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Man. That's the second Female Fictional-character rights group that I've seen reveal themselves as flaming bigots in disguise.

I literally quoted one group in stating that "all white male characters are interchangable". It's quite a frightening development that reason has been replaced by zealotry.

As an interesting corallary, I've been reading a book which proposes a theory as to how such behavior develops: essentially by misfiring of normally useful portion of the brain related to fight-or-flight responses and the concept of romantic love. It's all quite facinating.

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If you've seen the Girl-Wonder community reveal itself as a group of "flaming bigots in disguise," you must not have gotten very far in, or you've been looking through a fairly thick filter.

It's about discussion of issues related to women in comics: as creators, characters, and fans. And while many of us are angry, many of us are also comics professionals, published scholars, and remarkably civil and rational people. To pigeonhole an entire community based on such surface stereotypes seems to me precisely the sort of bigotry that you're so quick to accuse us of.

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I think you are being terribly defensive right now.

A few girls didn't like the joke so you attack a very important comic book community to get back at them? You defame the entire cause because the founder of GW didn't like your joke (with good reason)?

You are immature, you are petty, and apparently very revengeful. This site means so much to me and has helped me so much and in one night you just cut at it all because of a personal problem over a joke that wasn't even funny. Did she overreact? Yes. Did you even try to see why she overeacted? Why she might take offense? Why you should probbaly just let it go? No. Because it's all about you.

I hoipe you realize that in your attempt to get back at one person you've gotten back at me, my friends, and everyone else who has ever cared about comics and goes to that site, men and women alike.

Way to be an egomaniac.

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In my defense, no attempt was ever made by anyone else to understand me, despite all the attempts I made to explain my position. I'm only responding in the way I was responded to. But I do find the implication that I could hurt "The Cause" charming.

By the way, finally came up with an idea for that article. It's good. Cuts like a scalpel instead of bludgeoning like a hammer. You'll laugh.

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I suppose this will teach me to feed the trolls. Well, knowing me, probably not. But anyway.

One, is the assumption that anyone could read the post and honestly think that girl_wonder.org is associated with comics that feature necrophilia and bestiality. That seems to me to be saying "anyone who would think of joining or sympathizing with our cause is so stupid that an OBVIOUS joke would turn them off to it." Credit your audience with some intelligence.

Um.... no. That was not my assumption at all.

I didn't say anyone would be gullible enough to believe that your statement was sincere, not sarcastic. What I said was that it was offensive to associate girl-wonder.org with comics that degrade women. I mean, suppose you had posted the same comic but said something like, "Clearly, this is comic is based on Livia's sex life."

I would have had the same response, "do you not understand why associating me with a porn comic featuring necrophilia, etc., is offensive?" Not because I believe that anyone would honestly believe that your statement was true, but because it would be offensive to me to be mentioned in the same post as-- ie, *associated with*-- a porn comic like that. In the same way, I felt it was offensive to make a joke about girl-wonder.org in that particular post.

Get it now?

Second, I can't believe you actually quoted my second paragraph and yet are still, in the last sentence of this post, hiding behind "...I made a joke." Seriously. Jokes can be offensive. Jokes can be racist or sexist, jokes can be cruel. "I made a joke" is not a get out of jail free card that means nobody has the right to be offended when you do or say something offensive. What part of that is so impossible for you to understand, that you can quote me *explaining* that concept in your own journal and still not get it?

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but because it would be offensive to me to be mentioned in the same post as-- ie, *associated with*-- a porn comic like that. In the same way, I felt it was offensive to make a joke about girl-wonder.org in that particular post.

I think you just made my point for me.

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I'm trying to understand what's going on here. Let me see if I have the backstory straight.

Mary hurt your feelings/"offended" you when she solicited ficlets, because she had not previously commented on your own work (disclaimer: Mary has commented on precisely three pieces of mine, one of which was a 100+-word ficlet). Like many fan authors, feedback is very important to you, as this post suggests.

Some time later, you posted the Ramba scans ending with a joke aimed at girl-wonder.org, a site that Mary established. Mary and others were not impressed by the joke; Mary and some others defriended you.

Your feelings were hurt again by the defriending.

You got thinking about g-w and Mary. You decided that Mary was a hypocrite because she is both a feminist who's advocating better treatment of female characters in comics and a fan-author whose work includes controversial erotic themes.

While I see a lot of hurt feelings and possible lashing-out on your part, I fail to see the hypocrisy here. Mary isn't an anti-porn feminist. Her fiction touches on issues that many authors, including yourself, have addressed, such as underage sexuality and intergenerational relationships. She has never denied her authorship of this work; she uses the same name for her work on g-w as she does for her fiction.

You do not share her specific interests in m/m slash or incest - that's fair enough. Such interests had not prevented you from friending her, and others who share them, in the past, nor from writing *for* her and other slashers.

My main failure to understand all of this comes down to this point: I do not agree that such themes negate her feminism or undermine her advocacy work. In fact, her sex-positive stance - to my mind - makes her and others working with her all the better equipped to speak out against thoughtless misogyny in mainstream comics.

But my *ultimate* failure to understand is based in the fact that with this post, you've personalized the issues and expressed your own hurt to the point that you're attempting to tarnish a project and a group of people, all because...you're *upset*?

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You decided that Mary was a hypocrite because she is both a feminist who's advocating better treatment of female characters in comics and a fan-author whose work includes controversial erotic themes.

Actually, I decided liviapenn was a hypocrite over her stated (in this very post) hatred of "associating" girl_wonder.org with porn comics (i.e., mentioning them in the same post) while both she and many others much more directly associated to g-w than me produce similarly "inappropriate" works and, as you yourself pointed out, she uses the same name for her work on g-w as she does for her fiction. Which means we have a double-standard.

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Please do not pretend moral superiority when I made a joke and your boss lady gets off on pedophilia and incest.

Here is one difference between Mary and you: Mary is *not an asshole*.

I am not affiliated with girl-wonder. Mary is not my "boss lady," especially since girl-wonder isn't run like that. Which you'd know if you weren't dumb as a box of hair, bless your stupid little heart.

I am commenting because you are a jerk, and I am really sick of you.

Grow the fuck UP.

Since you appear unable to grasp minor details like subtlety, let me help you out. A sexual relationship between Bruce and Jason before Jason's death (when, by the way, he had certainly hit puberty, since Jason died when he was *fifteen*, n00b) would be problematic for several reasons: Jason was a minor at the time. Bruce was in a position of authority over Jason. Bruce is insane and not someone with whom it is even possible to have a healthy relationship.

And Mary? KNOWS that. Maybe if you had a better grasp of basic critical faculties, you'd get more of the Wrong made clear to you.

What Mary writes in her fic doesn't actually have to apply to her fantasty life. Catch a clue.

(And also, not degrading to men in nearly the same way a comic like the one you posted is degrading to women. You're comparing two unlike things and doing it poorly.)

So is sex between an adult male and a young female "incredibly fucking creepy, oh my god" while sex between an adult male and a young male not only alright, but acceptable as the subject of erotica? Just wondering.

Do you really want to bring people's porn into this? Because I'm willing to go there if you are, even though reading your porn hurts my very soul. It is *that bad*.

Well, you seem to think that sex between an adult female and a young female is "alright" [sic] and "acceptable as the subject of erotica", so! Same question back at you.

Also, dude? Your fixation with Mary is ALSO REALLY CREEPY.

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When in doubt, the classic defence of "You're So MEAN!" will always make you look like a dullard fantard without fail.

Question: How do you know so much about Mary's Fantasy Life? The answer will probably creep me out, but you are talking as an authority on it and I am taking the liberty to question it.

Also, the relavance of the porn was not the pedo-ness, but the submissive male positions (do correct me if I am wrong). Because that would be a major "Missed the point in a fit of intolerant rage" moment on your part.

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I totally see your point in that people can be way too stuck-up about their beliefs, and everyone needs a good sense of humor along with their righteousness. I agree that whenever a feminist joke is made, there's sort of a pile-on of defensive people. At the same time, I think a lot of people just don't appreciate your particular brand of humor, rather than not having a sense of humor at all. You have to admit, you make tasteless jokes--and that's because dude, tasteless is generally hilarious. But if you're gonna make those kinds of jokes, it doesn't seem like you should expect anything less than a lot of insulted people.

I really don't understand what Mary's fanfiction has to do with any of it? She's not a writer for an actual company like DC comics; and as far as I know, she doesn't go around discouraging what people write in their own fanfiction. Nor does she encourage or present adult and young male sex as an acceptable societal norm. I fail to see the double-standard there.

Sorry to sort of intrude here, as I'm not really involved with G-W (and I'm sure you're wondering who the hell I am) I'm just curious about both sides of the issue.

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That was a *joke*? I thought it was one of your usual passive-aggressive attempts to garner thirty-gazillion posts and start yet another in a series of tiresome kerfuffles. Because if people aren't paying attention to you, how else do you know you exist?

Your LJ profile is... no, I can't. Too easy.

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i wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and give your points the consideration they deserve, but i can't get past the stink of personal vendetta. you have meticulously targeted the personal, if not private, journal of one member of girl wonder's staff. is this really about "pedophilia and incest", or is it about the fall out from the ramba debacle, ie your removal from mary's friends list? i would hope that such a venomous post wouldn't boil down to hurt feelings.

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This is a flame.

This is a flame because I believe you've deserved one, several times over.

This is a flame because rebutting the points you've made would be like debating whether or not the Moon is constructed of unripe cheese.

This is a flame because among the sensible, civilized responses to "wow, that wasn't funny" are "sorry" or a shrug or another try, but not a smear campaign intended to destroy an organization because you've decided you have a problem with its founder.

This is a flame because of the ludicrous, entitled, solipsistic nature of that problem. And because examples similar to the ones you pulled out of Mary's stories could be found from your stories, only with heterosexual pairings instead of homosexual ones.

This is a flame because it's been quite awhile since I've seen anything as loathesome as you crawl up the drainpipe, you're negatively impacting the enjoyment of not a few people and disrupting an online hangout I've found most congenial, and I have grown tired of keeping quiet about it in an attempt to be polite.

This is a flame because your comment on my recent story made me ashamed to have recieved it, and it took me awhile to respond civilly.

This is a flame because you've attacked someone I like and think is a good person, and I feel it's important to publically state that in the context and arena of your attack.

I don't care to approach this dispassionately; I was dispassionate when I evaluated two Livejournals and considered whether the personalities presented in their contents were those of people I'd want to know better. I decided that sharpest_rose was such a person, and eventually realized that you are someone to avoid.

This is a flame because, quite apart from where our opinions have been congruent or differing, I've found you to be a grade-A jerk. And this is the last thing I intend to say to you.

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*applauds*

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About the joke - yeah, I think people have been a little uptight about it, but if you are gonna make offensive jokes, then don't be surprised that people get offended.

But really, this comparison you are trying to draw makes no sense. Writing pornographic fantasy for a few people does NOT equate being a hypocrite because you don't want to see it in MAINSTREAM COMICS. She is not saying that one is okay and the other is not. Of course she isn't and it is a completely illogical conclusion to draw.
Porn is porn and is written/drawn for a SPECIFIC reason - to get people off. And people are gonna have different tastes there. Hey, one person may get off on rape fic but are you seriously saying that must mean that they would be okay with real life rape? Or rape as a plot device to give some man motivation? No! Of course not!
A mainstream comic book (such as the JLA) is NOT written to get people off. It is not porn. And therefore, the objectification of women as entirely sexual without any character development does not have a place in a mainstream comic book. That is what girl-wonder is about. Because girls don't enjoy being treated as objects that are there only for the pleasure of male readers...funny, that.
There is no connection between personal fantasy and what is socially acceptable. Please stop trying to make out like there is.

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I'm not comparing pornographic fantasy and mainstream comics, but pornographic fantasy and pornographic comics. What difference is there between a textual story about Green Lantern and Green Arrow having sex and a fan comic about the same, besides medium? Similarly, why is being associated with a comic about Ramba unacceptable while being associated with a story about Bruce and Jason in a sexual relationship alright? Some seem to be suggesting there's a moral difference between professional work and fan work, but that, to me, is arbitrary. It's saying that all published pornography is misogynistic, while all fan-produced pornography is feminist.

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I think jennyo and glossing mostly covered what I think about your joke and why you're reacting the way you are reacting.

Have you thought about the differences between fanfic and what actually gets published? Or pornography aimed at an adult audience vs. someone who considered by many comics fans to be one the greatest writers ever Frank Miller (since you brought him up in the threads) and who's reading him? Have you considered 2nd wave feminism vs. 3rd wave feminism and how those on the Girl-Wonder boards might not all be in agreeance about what kind of feminism they follow?

You know, if every man in Mary's stories were rentboys, I would scratch my head.

I scratch my head at Frank Miller because every single one of the women in his books falls along the virgin/whore line. I thumb my nose at Frank Miller because he's toted as a mainstream comic writer hero and as the best of the best. Because when I got the comic bookstore, the guys in front of me go "Dude, are we ever going to get more of ASBAR? That was the best Batman I've ever read?" I thumb my nose because we live in a society were these guys looked at me with shock that I dared to open my mouth and point out Vicki Vale's talking ass and how maybe that's not so cool.

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I love how you pick some random, arbitrary delineating line to determine what should have artistic freedom (fan fiction) and what should be made to adhere to The Correct Feminist Morality. So JLA and ASBAR aren't allowed to be porny? How about yaoi? How about the PG-13 yaoi? I fail to see any difference, other than gender, between PG-13 yaoi and ASBAR.

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Something I'm wondering about is why are all the Teh_No haters on this thread in the first place? Wouldn't you have to be reading his journal in order to run across this post and object to it?

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More likely referred here by comments/links in other communities.

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Yes, Virginia, there is indeed a double standard! It is acceptable for women to write about rape, and pedophilia, and any other 'nasty' topic you care to list, because women are by far more likely to be the victims of such. It is acceptable for women to write about their darkest fantasies and share them with other women in public, because it is generally acknowledged that women aren't going to you know, actually go out and act on them.

Likewise, it is all right for me to make Jewish jokes, because I am Jewish. It is not all right for my Christian friends to do the same. It is acceptable for black rappers to use the "N" word in their music, while it is generally frowned upon for the guy who plays Kramer to shout it from the stage. And finally, it is perfectly fine for Mary to call herself a feminist, be against things like, oh say, rape, and continue to have all the porny, kinktastic fantasies she wants, regardless of whether or not you approve of them. It is in fact, very telling that you feel as if your approval is somehow necessary in order to legitimize women's fantasies.

There are different rules for minorities vs the majority, for women vs men- hey, welcome to the real world. And if you don't like it? Ya'll run the place. Go do something about the alleged "victimhood" of white males, besides whining like a baby about people who think you're a jerk. Cause it pretty much just makes you look like one.

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t is acceptable for women to write about rape, and pedophilia, and any other 'nasty' topic you care to list, because women are by far more likely to be the victims of such.

So it's okay for an author to write about a thirty-something MAN having sex with a twelve-year-old BOY or two BROTHERS having sex with their FATHER... because the author is a WOMAN?

It is acceptable for women to write about their darkest fantasies and share them with other women in public, because it is generally acknowledged that women aren't going to you know, actually go out and act on them.

Yes, because no woman has ever committed pedophilia or incest. Ever. Because all women are just so sweet and nice and just perfect little princesses who couldn't conceive of ever doing anything wrong.

And they call me antifeminist.

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that there's a textbook ad hominem logical fallacy. your argument is that calling that site names was okay because the girl on it is [derisive comment].

people think it's funny to call polish people dumb, or native people drunks or thieves. sure, it's an obvious joke. and it doesn't matter if the polish/native person in question is, in fact, dumb, or drunk, or a thief - generalizing, even in an obvious way, something that objectionable is still wrong.

sorry, man.

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Right. Then we're going to have to stop every comedian who ever generalized about a group of people to make a joke. You take Carlos Mencia, I'll take EVERY OTHER COMEDIAN EVER, we'll meet up in the middle and have cocktails.

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I can't believe that one (obvious) joke blew up into all this! *shakes head*

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